Dan Beresh: [00:00:00] I want to know how many comedy social media channels are dedicated to making fun of consultants, and most of the time making fun of the fact that they can't talk about what they do. My friend sent me lots of videos about this, and I hope yours do too. And, and it's typically around someone saying, "Hey, uh, what do you do for work?"

And the other person says, "Well, I'm a consultant. I help solve business problems." And they say, "What kind of business problems?" And, you know, three minutes later, we have no idea what they actually do. So this podcast, the Fide Podcast, is about helping you to make sure you are not that person, to helping you communicate the value that you provide in a way that's clear and concise Today, I sat down with an old mentor of mine, Gord Sanford, to talk about how he pivoted his area of focus from digital transformation to future-ready workforce or lifelong learning, and in so doing, established himself as a market leader.

So let's dig in. It's really great to be here with you, Gord. I really appreciate you coming on the Fide podcast. Do you wanna just introduce yourself a little bit, and then we'll, uh, talk about market authority?  

Gord Sandford: My name is Gordon Sanford. [00:01:00] Uh, I've been a career consultant. I've done a lot of varied things. I think the common element in my career is, is helping organizations of all sizes in many sectors with tech-enabled business transformation.

About seven years ago, I started to realize that it's really not a technology problem. What's holding back organizations from achieving their aspiration is people issues, tal- um, culture, mindset, ways of working, competencies, and they don't really know how to do it. So I devoted myself to kind of teaching people what it would take to do that while we're delivering the work.

As that started to gather momentum, I started to really reflect on, like, are people really future ready, and how are we gonna change the system to help continue to build skills and competencies in people to be more future ready? So I've pivoted to this future-ready workforce concept.  

Dan Beresh: Gord, I'm so excited to have this conversation because I think the human element is such an important part of what we do in business.

And [00:02:00] I think we, we've fooled ourselves a few times in the past when new technology comes out, AI of course being the most recent one, where people will say, "Oh my God, it's gonna take over my job. It's gonna take over all of our jobs. Then no one's gonna be working, and it's just gonna be the AI talking to itself."

Well, the reality is we, you know, a year or so after that, we get a little bit more mature. We look, look at it from a broader perspective and we say, "Someone's gonna have to operate that machine." And how many times has that happened in the past, right? And so of course, the human element, no matter how much the technology changes, becomes that constant and is such an important part of the work we do, and I think of the work we will always be doing in the future.

So with that in mind, Gord, let's talk a little bit... We always start with these three top tips on how to build market authority, communicate clearly the value you provide as a consulting leader. So Gord, if you were someone who's looking to establish themselves as a leader, as you did, you know, with your pivot, what would you recommend they do?

Gord Sandford: Yeah. Perhaps what's most important if you really wanna build a brand, be an expert, or make big [00:03:00] change, is the full belief and conviction in what you're doing. And so I think you can take a model and say, "What are the piece parts, the unique elements that I bring, and how does that tell a unique story?" And spend your time on that model.

What is your personal meaning? What is the assembly of your parts that brings you that unique perspective? So really finding that. I would spend time on your purpose and meaning, 'cause when you have that belief, you're gonna have much more conviction. That conviction is, um, infectious. People want that kind of belief.

The second thing is I would surround yourself with people that will tell you what you need to hear, and I would work on your ability to take that feedback because it's a true gift, but it'll make sure you're kinda not You're not heading down a path that doesn't make sense. I think the, uh, the last part that I was thinking, having that courage to believe in your convictions.

If you wanna do something hard or complicated, if you wanna build a [00:04:00] brand as an expert in something, then you're gonna have to stay at it even when people are saying you're not. And coupled with that, maybe it's a three B, is you can't tell people you're an expert, you have to do it. So you gotta put in the hours, you gotta spend the time, you gotta do the learning.

I've taken classes on learning so that I can say that they're not right. So it's not like I believe it, but I've said I've got that same certification, and I'm telling you, it wasn't very valuable. So put in the time, find the people that are kind, and, like, really stick to your purpose and meaning.  

Dan Beresh: It's funny to me, Gord, because when you start to talk about following your convictions, what resonates with me is even doing this podcast, I, you know, been saying, "Man, I should really, I should really do this podcast."

Uh, but then other half of my brain says, "Well, hang on. Are you qualified to do this?" And, and then of course, you go back to the other side and it says, "Well, no, no, this is the work I do day in, day out, and people trust me to, to be an expert in this, in this, you know, in this space." So, uh, from that perspective, it's a matter of, you know, really following your [00:05:00] convictions.

But I think that there's a fine line to tread there, right? Because at the same time, you don't... You need that stubbornness, and, and maybe you could even call it arrogance, to say, "Yeah, I'm, I believe in this and I'm gonna keep doing it even when other people don't believe in me." On the other hand, you need those people who you trust to say, "Yeah, you're, you know, you're doing it and you're, you know, you're, you're, you're blazing your trail, but here's another way you should think about it," or, "Here's another way you could approach it that might make it a little bit easier."

Or even, "This is maybe not the right path to take, and here are, here are the reasons there." So at the same time as you need that, that confidence, that bullishness, you also need that humility, and I think that having both of those at the same time is such a fascinating thing. Obviously, a, a push and pull, right?

And, and a struggle for all of us. Um, so all right. Let- let's, let's make this real now for the, the folks who are listening. So let's talk a little bit about your pivot, Gord, from tech-enabled transformation to the people side of it, how [00:06:00] you built that authority, um, in terms of your, your future-ready workforce, uh, offering and, and the work that you're doing now.

So let's, let's back up there. When you initially decided to do this change, were you an expert in people at that point? Did people see you as an authority in that?  

Gord Sandford: That's two questions, I think. What level of expertise did I have, and then what's the authority? Um, I did immerse myself deeply. So I read and studied tons of stuff, and it had been developing for years, so it's not like I just decided I'm gonna do this.

So I had really developed, devoted a lot of time Um, and could speak the language and understand the issues and things like that. The other problem that I was faced with was, and I was pretty well known, um, and so it was confusing to a lot of people. I, I would talk about future-ready workforce, and then they would say, "Well, how is that different from your digital?"

I'm like, "It, [00:07:00] it's not, it's not. It's, except we need it for the digital era." So I found that probably inertia of, uh, trying to break through. I, I did three or four things. I published as many points of view, and I wrote my opinion, and I shared. I did the work, so I sort of built the experience and the quals.

And like I said, I, I researched and learned and read. And so it was a journey, and I'm constantly still reminding people. But yeah, I mean, you gotta kinda... I always say you can't tell people, you gotta show them. Like, I could say I'm an expert, or I could just show you my expertise.  

Dan Beresh: So how do you show someone your expertise?

What's the difference between telling and showing?  

Gord Sandford: Largely doing, I guess, is the big difference. So I could talk theoretical, but I said, let me share with you, like, how we're gonna get this done. And I was bringing, probably 'cause of my background, a little bit of a novel approach. Like, mixing from what I had learned before, I was taking a different approach to learning.

As you know, I always said learning in the flow of work, which was [00:08:00] not necessarily mainstream. So I was promoting, like, a different approach, but then showing people how to do it.  

Dan Beresh: So d- let's dig into that now. I mean, in terms of how people are... H-how are you showing people how you're doing the work? I mean, what, what kind of, what kind of collateral, what kind of things are you making?

You said you did some writing?  

Gord Sandford: Yeah, so I have, like, we, I, I'm part of publishing, like, nine perspectives and points of view on LinkedIn this, about, in the last 18 months. Most of them I'm, like, an author, or some I'm just a contributor. Um, so yeah, I did publish. Um, and I, I did create, like, unique approaches.

And so what I was saying to people is, like, if you're trying to learn hard things, either complex skills or enduring competencies, like how to be more collaborative or how to be a better leader, things that are hard are not once and done. And so what I kept saying was the answer from most of the system is like, you have a gap, I'll buy you a course, [00:09:00] or I'll give you some training.

And I said, that's not working, and it's not hard to find examples of that not working. I could... Things like, say, Agile. I could find tons of people that are Agile certified, but really don't get it So I c- it wasn't hard to find people that said it doesn't work, so then the question is how do you do it? And that's when I'd say, like, "Here's a different approach to building, like, a learning academy while we do the work that's tailored and bespoke. Instead of taking people out of work and putting them in a class, I brought the g- the learning into work."  

Dan Beresh: Yeah.  

Gord Sandford: So I very carefully explained it. I had methodology and framework, and then I would just... I could do it in small experiments and say, "We don't have to spend a ton of money here. Let me do some stuff."

And then I think, you know, I had these, the two different mantras. I used to say, "Ignite the passion, fan the flames, get out of the way." And then unfortunately Canada experienced, like, two summers of wildfires, and that story wasn't as-  

Dan Beresh: That wasn't that was maybe the, not the, uh, not the tagline.  

Gord Sandford: Yeah. So then I started [00:10:00] saying, um, "We gotta infect the host," which, again, during COVID, like, there was very mixed reactions.

Some people said, "Yeah, that's what a vaccine is, uh, positively infecting the host to, to make change." But most people don't get that. Most people are like, "Why would you do that?" So, but my point is if you show people the way, you only need about 20% of critical mass before it really takes off. So now my new one is, um, um, like rolling a snowball down a mountain.

Like, you- Yeah ... you just gotta get it started, then you, then it'll gather speed and momentum on its own.  

Dan Beresh: So let's talk a little bit about you decided to write those articles. Now, there's so many ways you can promote what you're doing, right? And articles are so, so common these days. We, you know, scroll a LinkedIn feed, you see a million articles.

So what do you do wr- when you're writing the article, or what do you do when you're posting the article to make people stop and actually listen and to, to read what you're saying?  

Gord Sandford: Well, what I'm trying to do, and people can critique it, but I'm trying to be [00:11:00] provocative in the title. So I'd say things like, "Most people are getting X wrong."

And then I'd explain it very briefly, and then I'd give an answer. So instead of saying, "Hey, call me and I'll help you," I'm like, "Here's actually how you do it." Now, a lot of my colleagues would say, "Well, if we do that, then they won't need us." I'm like, "Eh, there's a big gap between that and actually getting it done."

And if it's that simple, then fine, they shouldn't hire us, but it's not. So what I try to do is make it very short, very provocative, and I'd kinda take a common... You know, we published something on, um, on business cases, and I just said most people are getting it wrong, and people don't know how to do value-driven business cases.

They don't. Um, and I give some evidence of that, and then, uh, I'd say, "Here's why it's hard, and here's what you need to do." So very straightforward that way. And then I tend to work with experts, or I'd collab. Like none of these are independent, so I'd collab with people that are learning experts. [00:12:00] A lot of learning, especially in academia, they love to publish research, but they, they take too much time or it's, it's too formal and no one reads it.

So I'd say, "Let me help you with something someone will read, but I could use your gravitas on it and your research and your knowledge." So I would also like pair up with people that had the brand to say, "Hey, there's something we co-authored," or whatever.  

Dan Beresh: Good. I absolutely love what you're saying, and I think what I wa- thing I wanna pull out here is what I'm taking to be quality over quantity, right?

Write it short, make it actionable, make it interesting, and have a perspective. And in this day and age, and I know I've harped on this before in, in the podcast, but this AI writing that, you know, is so easy to do now, this is generating just a glut of quantity. And so if you think about it from your client's perspective, they are inundated with a huge amount of writing.

And the thing to do if you're thinking about going out and writing some thought leadership is make it good, make it interesting, and, and make it short so that someone can easily digest it and say, "Wow, that person had a really interesting perspective." Now is [00:13:00] not the time to use those pieces of software to just spam the world with 10 or 15 articles in a week.

And I'm not saying don't use the AI platform. If you wanna use it, do use it, but go through it and make sure it's something that is interesting. And something we're seeing happen right now is Google just came out with a new guidance around what they call helpful content. So they're gonna change their search engine algorithm so that they're trying to pick out content that is genuinely helpful to people who are going and looking for the answers to something on the internet.

They are trying to get rid of this SEO optimized content that we see on so many websites that's basically drivel that's just a bunch of keywords strung together into sentences. So if you're someone who's thinking about going out there and writing some thought leadership, please, please focus on the quality, make it short, make it interesting, and, and make it stand out.

And I wanna talk about that, that standing out for a second because Gord, a lot of the [00:14:00] clients I talk to, you know, it, it's one thing to have an opinion, it's another thing to be provocative. And, and how far are they willing to go before they start to say, "Oh, this is a bit risky here." So what do you think, Gord?

What's your perspective on how provocative we should be?  

Gord Sandford: You're un- pa- you're, you're hitting something that I could spend a bit of time on here, but I agree with you, and I think it's a problem in Canada. We're too nice, and nice is not kind. You really need to be honest with people. I had a big moment on a client I was at where I pulled my team aside and said, "Hey, our job is not to make them happy all the time.

That's not our job. Our job is to give them value, help them achieve their objectives, and sometimes we might have to tell them stuff they don't wanna hear. And sometimes they might get mad at us, but in the big picture, that's what they really need." I, um, and so, you know, I think that's really important. Um, I had one client a long time ago.

I told them what I thought they really needed to know. They said, "Thank you for that. You know, I think our time is kinda done. [00:15:00] Um, and so anyway, long story short was that client ended up getting let go, which I was predicting. Um, I helped them a lot when they were in transition, and then when they got to a new role, they hired me and they said, "Do you wanna know why I hired me?"

And they said, "You were the only one telling me what I needed to know. Everyone was telling me what I wanted to hear."  

Dan Beresh: Hmm.  

Gord Sandford: And I said, "That's my commitment. I will tell you..." Like, and I'm not right all the time. So it's like, I'm not asking you to listen to me. I'm just... or, or follow my instructions. I'm just saying, "Here's a different perspective."

Um, we need to accept different perspectives. So I think it's like, don't get personal, don't attack, don't put, paint people into a corner, but it's okay to be provocative. It's our role. If we're gonna in- if we're gonna make change, you need to be provocative.  

Dan Beresh: The other thing that you talked about just now was coming up with your own unique perspective, and I'm sure there are lots of people out there who wanna be experts in their field, wanna be seen as, as authoritative, um, but who potentially, you know, don't have that, that kinda unique way [00:16:00] of looking at things and, and maybe are looking for it.

What advice would you have for those people?  

Gord Sandford: Well, what I did was I did a lot of self-reflection, and I looked a lot at my journey. There's not a lot of people that have the exact same journey. Probably every individual could say that. So I said, "What can I pull from my experiences and my journeys that would've been different from people that are in this milieu that will add, like, a ton of value?"

So I, I spent a lot of time in this model called Ikigai. It's, it's a really basic model. You can, you can look it up on Google, but it's kinda four circles. Like, what are your competencies? What are you good at? What are your offerings? Why would people pay you? What do you love? personally just love and what does the world need?

And then I said, "Well, how can I draw upon those things?" Like, it's actually quite interesting how I'm drawing upon a lot of my own personal passions. I try to look at, like, that page and said, "What- That's a unique situation. How can I amplify what's unique in that [00:17:00] to make a bit of a pivot on what people are normally hearing?"

Dan Beresh: And then it's uniquely you too, right? People read it and they say, "This is Gord. This is Gord's brand, and this is what..." It's not just this kind of generic, uh, stuff that we're seeing so often today, right?  

Gord Sandford: Yeah, and like, I, I would always argue in the middle is your personal meaning and purpose, and there's been a lot of discussion about the emergence of purpose and meaning at the forefront.

Like, that was not something we talked about in the early stages of my career. No one cared about your pur- purpose. Um, but it, you know, you can, you can fight through a lot of adversity, you can be a lot more gritty when you have meaning and purpose. And, and I also think that that desire to make that change, that is infectious.

Like, people just like the energy. So, um, you know, if someone critiques my paper, I'm not gonna turtle and say, "You're right." You know? I'm just like, "That's very interesting. Like, I'd love to really probe on that," 'cause I'm trying to get better at it, right? Versus saying, [00:18:00] "I put all my eggs in one basket here and it didn't work."

'Cause if you've really got the purpose to, like, change the whole learning system in the country, then you're gonna take whatever feedback you can get.  

Dan Beresh: Yeah. Yeah, and I think there's an era where we were hard selling, where we were just saying, "Here's the brand. This is EY," you know, and, and we are an authority in the market as a company, and we kinda moved past that a few years later and w- it became, all right, companies need to have purpose, and we need to be selling to not only being able to solve the problem, but also having the, the, you know, the right values and the, the rights, the right impact and all of that.

But it strikes me now that in an era where we have so much access to human beings, to, to directly to, you know, business leaders, to celebrities, et cetera, that someone in your position is, is also selling Gord. And I mean, people have always bought people as well, right? But the more you can be that, that human who you are authentically you, people are reading that [00:19:00] article and saying, "Yes, he's an authority, but also I like Gord and I like that he's pa- genuinely passionate about this."

Gord Sandford: I would actually argue when I put together the story Part of what is uniquely Gord is, is the collaborative nature. So my brand is actually less about me and more about collaborating. That's why, like, all the-- And it's not, it's not a purposeful thought. I pulled all these papers as collaborative efforts, not because I was, like, trying to show that I'm collaborative, because I wanted more input.

Like, I wanted to be collaborative. So I have thought about that. I don't pump the brand of Gord much because, um, to be honest, to really change learning, like, I think it needs to be a movement. We have lots of famous people that are writing opinions, but they're-- we're not changing the world. The results speak.

Like, that's what I said I always wanted to do, was create, like, this big thing that was gonna change how we did consulting. So, you know, you gotta be, uh, authentic to yourself and, and, um, true and be careful about looking left and right. [00:20:00] I, I do think right now there are many, many, many small experiments around hacking learning, but they're not scaling And I think that that's part of it, is like we just need to kn- not make it about us and make it about the system or the movement.

Dan Beresh: Yeah. So tell me about that collaborative nature. I mean, do you think that anyone who's trying to build authority as a consulting leader should be pushing this agenda of collaboration, or is that something that's unique to you and they could be, you know, they could land on something different that's more- specific to their, their-  

Gord Sandford: I think if you looked at my ikigai, like it was core. Part of what I'm doing is trying to connect the dots across traditional silos. That's a big part of my strength. So collaboration is part of the story. You could be, like, a gen AI PhD algo expert. It, it, you, it doesn't actually ne- it's not necessary that part of that brand is collaborative.

My story is, like, trying [00:21:00] to build a movement of, of across various silos, and so it's germane to the, to the brand that, that I'm a collaborator.  

Dan Beresh: You need to figure out what that core story is.  

Gord Sandford: Right.  

Dan Beresh: And from there you can then start to build materials, start to write those articles that are gonna feel authentic and, and they're gonna be useful and interesting to people.

Gord Sandford: Right.  

Dan Beresh: What kinds of, of other media, other collateral, other events, other types of ways to get out there would you recommend for someone who's trying to, to make a name for themselves?  

Gord Sandford: I mean, there's a lot you can do podcasting, there's a lot you can do with LinkedIn, there's a lot you can do in online. I, I actually would start with immersing myself in the content versus, like, projecting expertise.

I'd become an expert. You'd be really shocked at sort of the old, whatever it is, Kevin Bacon, like, um, how much referral from referral from referral. And it's even when you and I met. Like, [00:22:00] you had known so many people that already knew me. Yeah. That it wasn't that foreign for you to come from a very different space to a Big Four accounting firm.

Dan Beresh: Yeah.  

Gord Sandford: Um, so I would just not discount sort of those connections, those live connections, um, and the value of the network. Uh, so I think it's, like, all media. I think if you're looking for only digital, then you're missing sort of like a human connection that's very hard to create with just talking to people and listening to people and, and share.

Yeah. But I think it's about trying different things.  

Dan Beresh: Yeah. Absolutely.  

Gord Sandford: And, and human-centered design is really about knowing your audience and, like, what's gonna make them the most comfortable.  

Dan Beresh: Yeah.  

Gord Sandford: So, you know, early when lockdown ended, there was people that wanted you in person, and I would show up for those people  

Dan Beresh: That's so important these days. Post-pandemic, we're all so remote, and there is a disconnection there. Right. And I think being in person is, uh, is so, so important in the right [00:23:00] context. Gord, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time, and this has been amazing. I've learned so much in this last half an hour, so can't thank you enough for, for coming on our podcast.

Gord Sandford: Thank you, guys. This is awesome.  

Dan Beresh: Thanks for tuning in today. My name is Daniel Beresh, and I'm the founder of Fide Creative. We're a company that makes you and your team look great by helping you to go to market in clear, concise, and creative ways, ultimately helping you to fill up your sales pipeline. If you have any thoughts or feedback on the show or what we talked about today, I'd love to hear from you.

My email is dberesh (at) fidecreative.com. and while I'm at it, we just put a couple of articles of our own up on the website, our own bit of thought leadership focused on that quality over quantity, and I'd love to hear what you think about those, too. Until next time, good luck out there.